But even if they're telling the truth about this, even if it is accurate about Marcus that he used a love potion, a love potion isn't a Eucharist. And all we know-- I mean, we can't decipher sequence by sequence what was happening. So, you know, I specifically wanted to avoid heavily relying on the 52 books of the [INAUDIBLE] corpus or heavily relying too much on the Gospel of Mary Magdalene and the evidence that's come from Egypt. And so the big question is what was happening there? BRIAN MURARESKU: I wish I could answer that question. We're going to get there very soon. Perhaps more generally, you could just talk about other traditions around the Mediterranean, North African, or, let's even say Judaism. BRIAN MURARESKU: Good one. So the Eastern Aegean. Before I set forth the outline of this thesis, three topics must be discussed in order to establish a basic understanding of the religious terminology, Constantine's reign, and the contemporary sources. And you're right. And he was actually going out and testing some of these ancient chalices. And that that's how I-- and by not speculating more than we can about the mystical supper, if we follow the hypothesis that this is a big if for some early communities of Greek speakers, this is how I'm finding common ground with priests both Catholic and Orthodox and Protestants. BRIAN MURARESKU: That's a good question. Now, I don't put too much weight into that. I understand more papers are about to be published on this. But in Pompeii, for example, there's the villa of the mysteries, one of these really breathtaking finds that also survived the ravage of Mount Vesuvius. I wish that an ancient pharmacy had been preserved by Mount Vesuvius somewhere near Alexandria or even in upper Egypt or in Antioch or parts of Turkey. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More Brought to you by GiveWell.org charity research and effective giving and 5-Bullet Friday, my very own email newsletter. BRIAN MURARESKU: I'm asked this question, I would say, in pretty much every interview I've done since late September. And my favorite line of the book is, "The lawyer in me won't sleep until that one chalice, that one container, that one vessel comes to light in an unquestionable Christian context.". It's not just Cana. At Cambridge University he worked in developmental biolo. So in my mind, it was the first real hard scientific data to support this hypothesis, which, as you alluded to at the beginning, only raises more questions. But when it comes to that Sunday ritual, it just, whatever is happening today, it seems different from what may have motivated the earliest Christians, which leads me to very big questions. And that the proof of concept idea is that we need to-- we, meaning historians of the ancient world, need to bring all the kinds of resources to bear on this to get better evidence and an interpretive frame for making sense of it. It's some kind of wine-based concoction, some kind of something that is throwing these people into ecstasy. Which, again, what I see are small groups of people getting together to commune with the dead. Thank you all for joining us, and I hope to see many of you later this month for our next event. I think the wine certainly does. Here's the proof of concept. BRIAN MURARESKU: Great question. What does God mean? So after the whole first half of the book-- well, wait a minute, Dr. Stang. And the truth is that this is a project that goes well beyond ancient history, because Brian is convinced that what he has uncovered has profound implications for the future of religion, and specifically, the future of his own religion, Roman Catholicism. What's the importance of your abstention from psychedelics, given what is obvious interest. You mentioned, too, early churchmen, experts in heresies by the name of Irenaeus of Lyons and Hippolytus of Rome. If beer was there that long ago, what kind of beer was it? Certainly these early churchmen used whatever they could against the forms of Christian practice they disapproved of, especially those they categorized as Gnostic. Although she's open to testing, there was nothing there. Now that doesn't mean, as Brian was saying, that then suggests that that's the norm Eucharist. And what we find at this farmhouse is a sanctuary that Enriqueta Pons herself, the archaeologist who's been on site since 1990, she calls it some kind of sanctuary dedicated to the goddesses of the mysteries. Pagan polemicists reversed the Biblical story of the Israelites' liberation from Egyptian bondage, portraying a negative image of Israelite origins and picturing them as misanthropes and atheists. That's one narrative that I feel is a little sensational. I mean, this is what I want to do with some of my remaining days on this planet, is take a look at all these different theories. CHARLES STANG: Brian, I wonder if you could end by reflecting on the meaning of dying before you die. I write it cognizant of the fact that the Eucharist doesn't work for many, many people. Those of you who don't know his name, he's a professor at the University of Amsterdam, an expert in Western esotericism. But what we do know is that their sacrament was wine and we know a bit more about the wine of antiquity, ancient Greek wine, than we can piece together from these nocturnal celebrations. CHARLES STANG: You know, Valentinus was almost elected bishop of Rome. But you will be consoled to know that someone else will be-- I will be there, but someone else will be leading that conversation. And the quote you just read from Burkert, it's published by Harvard University Press in 1985 as Greek Religion. But I do want to push back a little bit on the elevation of this particular real estate in southern Italy. Hard archaeobotanical, archaeochemical data, I haven't seen it. And I answer it differently every single time. I think it's important you have made a distinction between what was Jesus doing at the Last Supper, as if we could ever find out. But the point being, if the Dionysian wine was psychedelic-- which I know is a big if-- I think the more important thing to show here in this pagan continuity hypothesis is that it's at least plausible that the earliest Christians would have at the very least read the Gospel of John and interpreted that paleo-Christian Eucharistic wine, in some communities, as a kind of Dionysian wine. So in the mountains and forests from Greece to Rome, including the Holy Land and Galilee. And then at some point they go inland. One, on mainland Greece from the Mycenaean period, 16th century BC, and the other about 800 years later in modern day Turkey, another ritual potion that seemed to have suggested some kind of concoction of beer, wine, and mead that was used to usher the king into the afterlife. That is, by giving, by even floating the possibility of this kind of-- at times, what seems like a Dan Brown sort of story, like, oh my god, there's a whole history of Christianity that's been suppressed-- draws attention, but the real point is actually that you're not really certain about the story, but you're certain is that we need to be more attentive to this evidence and to assess it soberly. Now, Carl Ruck from Boston University, much closer to home, however, took that invitation and tried to pursue this hypothesis. And when I read psychedelic literature or I read the literature on near-death experiences, I see experiences similar to what I experienced as a young boy. So we move now into ancient history, but solidly into the historical record, however uneven that historical record is. Joe Campbell puts it best that what we're after is an experience of being alive. Thank you for that. In fact, something I'm following up on now is the prospect of similar sites in the Crimea around the Black Sea, because there was also a Greek presence there. CHARLES STANG: OK. And you suspect, therefore, that it might be a placebo, and you want the real thing. And what the FDA can do is make sure that they're doing it in a way that it's absolutely safe and efficacious. Dogs, indicative of the Greek goddess Hecate, who, amongst other things was known as the [GREEK], the dog eater. This an absolute masterclass on why you must know your identity and goals before forming a habit, what the best systems are for habit. What's significant about these features for our piecing together the ancient religion with no name? So let's talk about the future of religion, and specifically the future of Roman Catholicism. The actual key that I found time and again in looking at this literature and the data is what seems to be happening here is the cultivation of a near-death experience. And I just happened to fall into that at the age of 14 thanks to the Jesuits, and just never left it behind. Who were the Saints? let's take up your invitation and move from Dionysus to early Christianity. A rebirth into what? The universality of frontiers, however, made the hypothesis readily extendable to other parts of the globe. I mean, what-- my big question is, what can we say about the Eucharist-- and maybe it's just my weird lens, but what can we say about it definitively in the absence of the archaeochemstry or the archaeobotany? This two-part discussion between Muraresku and Dr. Plotkin examines the role psychedelics have played in the development of Western civilization. CHARLES STANG: All right. Let me just pull up my notes here. And the second act, the same, but for what you call paleo-Christianity, the evidence for your suspicion that the Eucharist was originally a psychedelic sacrament. But Egypt seems to not really be hugely relevant to the research. And when you speak in that way, what I hear you saying is there is something going on. I understand the appeal of that. And I think we're getting there. I mean, so it was Greek. BRIAN MURARESKU: We can dip from both pies, Dr. Stang. And I think that's an important distinction to make. And Brian, it would be helpful for me to know whether you are more interested in questions that take up the ancient world or more that deal with this last issue, the sort of contemporary and the future. So. Now, let's get started, Brian. I am so fortunate to have been selected to present my thesis, "Mythology and Psychedelics: Taking the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis a Step Further" at. And the one thing that unites both of those worlds in this research called the pagan continuity hypothesis, the one thing we can bet on is the sacred language of Greek. And I think sites like this have tended to be neglected in scholarship, or published in languages like Catalan, maybe Ukrainian, where it just doesn't filter through the academic community. And what does this earliest history tell us about the earliest evidence for an ancient psychedelic religion? So the mysteries of Dionysus are a bit more of a free-for-all than the mysteries of Eleusis. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. And what it has to do with Eleusis or the Greek presence in general, I mean, again, just to say it briefly, is that this was a farmhouse of sorts that was inland, this sanctuary site. I imagine there are many more potion makers around than we typically recognize. He was greatly influenced by Sigmund Freud (1940) who viewed an infant's first relationship - usually with the mother - as "the prototype of all later love-relations". Part 1 Brian C. Muraresku: The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis and the Hallucinogenic Origins of Religion 3 days ago Plants of the Gods: S4E1. There are others claiming that there's drugs everywhere. By which I mean that the Gospel of John suggests that at the very least, the evangelist hoped to market Christianity to a pagan audience by suggesting that Jesus was somehow equivalent to Dionysus, and that the Eucharist, his sacrament of wine, was equivalent to Dionysus's wine. And I think that that's the real question here. So if you don't think that you are literally consuming divine blood, what is the point of religion? And at the same time, when I see a thirst, especially in young people, for real experience, and I see so many Catholics who do not believe in transubstantiation, obviously, what comes to my mind is how, if at all, can psychedelics enhance faith or reinvent Christianity. Where are the drugs? So this is the tradition, I can say with a straight face, that saved my life. Maybe there's a spark of the divine within. So it's hard for me to write this and talk about this without acknowledging the Jesuits who put me here. But we at least have, again, the indicia of evidence that something was happening there. What does that have to do with Christianity? Well, let's get into it then. So first of all, please tell us how it is you came to pursue this research to write this book, and highlight briefly what you think are its principal conclusions and their significance for our present and future. And now we have a working hypothesis and some data to suggest where we might be looking. OK-- maybe one of those ancient beers. So let's start with one that is more contemporary. This time, tonight I'll say that it's just not my time yet. And that's not how it works today, and I don't think that's how it works in antiquity. And there were moments when the sunlight would just break through. So Plato, Pindar, Sophocles, all the way into Cicero, Marcus Aurelius, it's an important thing. Why don't we turn the tables and ask you what questions you think need to be posed? Find ratings and reviews for the newest movie and TV shows. Read more 37 people found this helpful Helpful Report abuse Tfsiebs So much research! CHARLES STANG: So it may be worth mentioning, for those who are attending who haven't read the book, that you asked, who I can't remember her name, the woman who is in charge of the Eleusis site, whether some of the ritual vessels could be tested, only to discover-- tested for the remains of whatever they held, only to learn that those vessels had been cleaned and that no more vessels were going to be unearthed. Material evidence of a very strange potion, a drug, or a [SPEAKING GREEK]. I'm skeptical, Dr. Stang. So this is interesting. And her answer was that they'd all been cleaned or treated for conservation purposes. And even Burkert, I think, calls it the most famous of the mystery rituals. Rather, Christian beliefs were gradually incorporated into the pagan customs that already existed there. There have been breakthroughs, too, which no doubt kept Brian going despite some skepticism from the academy, to say the least. You want to field questions in both those categories? And what we know about the wine of the time is that it was prized amongst other things not for its alcoholic content, but for its ability to induce madness. But I think the broader question of what's the reception to this among explicitly religious folk and religious leaders? . And so even within the New Testament you see little hints and clues that there was no such thing as only ordinary table wine. 13,000 years old. There is evidence that has been either overlooked or perhaps intentionally suppressed. The answer seems to be connected to psychedelic drugs. I mean, the honest answer is not much. They did not. But unfortunately, it doesn't connect it to Christianity. And I feel like I accomplished that in the afterword to my book. "@BrianMuraresku with @DocMarkPlotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More" Please enjoy! And I want to-- just like you have this hard evidence from Catalonia, then the question is how to interpret it. Lots of Greek artifacts, lots of Greek signifiers. So I have my concerns about what's about to happen in Oregon and the regulation of psilocybin for therapeutic purposes. This limestone altar tested positive for cannabis and frankincense that was being burned, they think, in a very ritualistic way. So thank you, all who have hung with us. And so I don't think that psychedelics are coming to replace the Sunday Eucharist. I'm happy to argue about that. I mean, if Burkert was happy to speculate about psychedelics, I'm not sure why Ruck got the reception that he did in 1978 with their book The Road to Eleusis. And not least because if I were to do it, I'd like to do so in a deeply sacred ritual. So here's a question for you. So what I think we have here in this ergtotized beer drink from Catalonia, Spain, and in this weird witch's brew from 79 AD in Pompeii, I describe it, until I see evidence otherwise, as some of the very first heart scientific data for the actual existence of actual spiked wine in classical antiquity, which I think is a really big point. So I want to propose that we stage this play in two acts. And that is that there was a pervasive religion, ancient religion, that involved psychedelic sacraments, and that that pervasive religious culture filtered into the Greek mysteries and eventually into early Christianity. And that's all I present it as, is wonderfully attractive and maybe even sexy circumstantial evidence for the potential use of a psychedelic sacrament amongst the earliest Christians. I just sense a great deal of structure and thoughtfulness going into this experience. 7:30 The three pillars to the work: the Eucharist as a continuation of the pharmako and Dionysian mysteries; the Pagan continuity theory; and the idea that through the mysteries "We can die before we die so that when we die we do not die" 13:00 What does "blood of Christ" actually mean; the implied and literal cannibalism BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. Now, it doesn't have to be the Holy Grail that was there at the Last Supper, but when you think about the sacrament of wine that is at the center of the world's biggest religion of 2.5 billion people, the thing that Pope Francis says is essential for salvation, I mean, how can we orient our lives around something for which there is little to no physical data? I also sense another narrative in your book, and one you've flagged for us, maybe about 10 minutes ago, when you said that the book is a proof of concept. And it was the Jesuits who encouraged me to always, always ask questions and never take anything at face value. Do the drugs, Dr. Stang? So psychedelics or not, I think it's the cultivation of that experience, which is the actual key. Here's the big question. Psychedelics Today: Mark Plotkin - Bio-Cultural Conservation of the Amazon. "The Jews" are not after Ye. What was the real religion of the ancient Greeks? According to Muraresku, this work, BOOK REVIEW which "presents the pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist," addresses two fundamental questions: "Before the rise of Christianity, did the Ancient Greeks consume a secret psychedelic sacrament during their most famous and well-attended religious rituals? I wish the church fathers were better botanists and would rail against the specific pharmacopeia. I see something that's happening to people. 1,672. So the basic point being, as far as we can tell, beer and wine are routinely mixed with things that we don't do today. In fact, he found beer, wine, and mead all mixed together in a couple of different places. BRIAN MURARESKU: OK. To some degree, I think you're looking back to southern Italy from the perspective of the supremacy of Rome, which is not the case in the first century. He draws on the theory of "pagan continuity," which holds that early Christianity adopted . Are they rolling their eyes, or are you getting sort of secretive knowing nods of agreement? He co-writes that with Gordon Wasson and Albert Hofmann, who famously-- there it is, the three authors. And so for me, this was a hunt through the catacombs and archives and libraries, doing my sweet-talking, and trying to figure out what was behind some of those locked doors. Amongst all the mystery religions, Eleusis survives. Just imagine, I have to live with me. These-- that-- Christians are spread out throughout the eastern Mediterranean, and there are many, many pockets of people practicing what we might call, let's just call it Christian mysticism of some kind. This is true. So if Eleusis is the Fight Club of the ancient world, right, the first rule is you don't talk about it. But I realized that in 1977, when he wrote that in German, this was the height of scholarship, at least going out on a limb to speculate about the prospect of psychedelics at the very heart of the Greek mysteries, which I refer to as something like the real religion of the ancient Greeks, by the way, in speaking about the Eleusinian mysteries. Read more about The Immortality Key by Brian Muraresku Making Sense by Sam Harris I have a deep interest in mysticism, and I've had mystical experiences, which I don't think are very relevant. 44:48 Psychedelics and ancient cave art . And I think there are lots of reasons to believe that. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of " tikkun olam "repairing and improving Here's another one. But by and large, no, we don't really know. It was one of the early write-ups of the psilocybin studies coming out of Johns Hopkins. Because even though it's a very long time ago, Gobekli Tepe, interestingly, has some things in common with Eleusis, like the worship of the grain, the possibility of brewing, the notion of a pilgrimage, and interaction with the dead. I go out of my way, in both parts of the book, which, it's divided into the history of beer and the history of wine, essentially. I know that's another loaded phrase. When you start testing, you find things. There's evidence of the mysteries of Dionysus before, during, and after the life of Jesus, it's worth pointing out. And when we know so much about ancient wine and how very different it was from the wine of today, I mean, what can we say about the Eucharist if we're only looking at the texts? It is not psychedelics. Now I understand and I appreciate the pharmaceutical industry's ability to distribute this as medicine for those who are looking for alternatives, alternative treatments for depression and anxiety and PTSD and addiction and end of life distress. BRIAN MURARESKU: I would say I've definitely experienced the power of the Christ and the Holy Spirit. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More So my biggest question is, what kind of wine was it? But it survives. And much of the evidence that you've collected is kind of the northern half of the Mediterranean world. So it wasn't just a random place to find one of these spiked wines. We look forward to hosting Chacruna's founder and executive director, Bia Labate, for a lecture on Monday, March 8. Despite its popular appeal as a New York Times Bestseller, TIK fails to make a compelling case for its grand theory of the "pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist" due to. I mean, something of symbolic significance, something monumental. Not because it's not there, because it hasn't been tested. And in his book [? So that's from Burkert, a very sober scholar and the dean of all scholarship on Greek religion. They linked the idea of witches to an imagined organized sect which was a danger to the Christian commonwealth. There were formula. Part 1 Brian C. Muraresku: The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis and the Hallucinogenic Origins of Religion - Feb 22, 2023 It would have parts of Greek mysticism in it, the same Greek mysteries I've spent all these years investigating, and it would have some elements of what I see in paleo-Christianity. Others find it in different ways, but the common denominator seems to be one of these really well-curated near-death experiences. CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF WORLD RELIGIONS, Harvard Divinity School42 Francis Avenue, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138 617.495.4495, my.hds |Harvard Divinity School |Harvard University |Privacy |Accessibility |Digital Accessibility | Trademark Notice |Reporting Copyright Infringements. It was a pilgrimage site. To become truly immortal, Campbell talks about entering into a sense of eternity, which is the infinite present here and now. I mean, about 25 years ago, actually. Something else I include at the end of my book is that I don't think that whatever this was, this big if about a psychedelic Eucharist, I don't think this was a majority of the paleo-Christians. We know that at the time of Jesus, before, during, and after, there were recipes floating around. But what we do know about the wine of the time is that it was routinely mixed with plants and herbs and potentially fungi. So, although, I mean, and that actually, I'd like to come back to that, the notion of the, that not just the pagan continuity hypothesis, but the mystery continuity hypothesis through the Vatican. But they charge Marcus specifically, not with a psychedelic Eucharist, but the use of a love potion. And that's where oversight comes in handy. I appreciate this. Do you think that the Christians as a nascent cult adapted a highly effective psycho technology that was rattling . CHARLES STANG: Right. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. Tim Ferriss is a self-experimenter and bestselling author, best known for The 4-Hour Workweek, which has been translated into 40+ languages. So frankly, what happens during the Neolithic, we don't know, at least from a scientific vantage. And Hofmann famously discovers-- or synthesizes LSD from ergot in 1938. That's our next event, and will be at least two more events to follow. A profound knowledge of visionary plants, herbs, and fungi passed from one generation to the next, ever since the Stone Age? All he says is that these women and Marcus are adding drugs seven times in a row into whatever potion this is they're mixing up. CHARLES STANG: OK, that is the big question.